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When it comes to men's fashion,
is undeniably one of the leading voices. He co-hosts the podcast with his partner-in-fits , which has become a significant part of the podcast zeitgeist and has transformed how many men think about fashion and how they dress.I first discovered the duo during the pandemic when I had exhausted all my favorite music and rewatched my favorite shows to the nth degree, needing something new to fill the silence of lockdown. Initially, I was taken aback by their language and the somewhat crass way they discussed not only fashion but…well everything. However, despite that, their sincerity in appreciating the medium of fashion was evident. Throwing Fits is not the duo’s first venture into a fashion show. Back when they were both working for Complex, they achieved early success with Fashion Bros, which has the look and feel of an SNL skit. Needless to say, their humorous style is not new—it’s authentically them!
So, when I was coming up with the list of people I wanted to interview, Larry was at the top. We had attended an event together and shared similar feelings about the industry, which I thought would be interesting to discuss. I must admit, I do love a bit of chaotic energy from time to time as well!
We cover a lot of ground in this conversation. We talk about how we met at the J.Crew holiday party and how BFA did us quite dirty (if you scroll through the transcription, I have linked the photo). We discuss the state of fashion and my former workplace, Saks. I should mention that Saks provided me with probably the best education I could have received in fashion. I honestly think that if you’re interested in working in capital “F” fashion, a stint in the retail space is invaluable as it brings a real sense of reality to the whole situation.
Additionally, near the end of the podcast, there is some criticism in regards to my former workplace. I think it is important to say that whenever my former employer is brought up, it’s about the institution, not individuals.
Without further ado, here is my interview with the Jawn Legend himself at Gemma!
You can follow Larry on Instagram here and listen to Throwing Fits here.
*Disclaimer: Strong language is used in this episode.*
JJ: So to I guess set the stage for everyone too, the first time I met you was at the J. Crew holiday party.
LS: Oh, shit. I was fucking hammered.
JJ: Yes.
LS: The worst photo that has ever been taken of me ever was with you.
JJ: Yes. Which I was...
LS: And what's her name?
JJ: Tchesmeni.
LS: Right. Who knows my wife.
JJ: Yes.
LS: But yes. Yes, that was, what a bad first impression. I guess it's not so bad that we still like each other.
JJ: No, I thought it was fantastic.
LS: Dude, it's so bad.
JJ: I know.
JJ: Yes. I know James bought it.
LS: James bought it and gifted it to me. And I think I had it for a while. And then I will admit that it was eventually thrown out.
JJ: That was my perspective, where is the photo?
LS: Well, yeah, it was in the tubing, whatever, the shipping tube, and it was just in my office. I just accumulate and accumulate. And then I think I was like, my wife probably had forced me to do some type of inventory or spring-cleaning, whatever. And I was like, what is this? And I pulled it out and I was just so viscerally appalled. I literally, not only am I with two beautiful people, melanin rich people, I look so drunk, and so pale, and so sloppy and disgusting, that I was like, it just needs to be destroyed. But I mean, it lives forever on the BFA website.
JJ: Yes.
LS: It's attached to my name.
JJ: Yes. Which I wonder if BFA on purpose, they take very bad... This sounds terrible, I probably should not be like...
LS: I mean, I don't give a fuck if you want to shit on BFA, go off.
JJ: Because I feel like there are several photos of me on there where I'm just like, why would they put this? I look terrible.
LS: Harsh lighting, a lot of these parties where it's dark. That was at the Odeon, right?
JJ: Yes.
LS: So it's like the flash is going to be flashing, and if you get caught in the cross-hairs, you could look like shit.
……………………………………………………….
LS: So the picture is destroyed. Confirmed.
JJ: It's destroyed.
LS: It's gone, dude.
JJ: Okay.
LS: I understand the idea of framing it as a bit and keeping it around. I'm so repulsed by it, and it's not even a thing where I think anyone who would see that picture would be repulsed.
JJ: Yeah. I...
LS: You guys look good, I just look like such dog shit.
JJ: In preparation for this, I went back through all those photos.
LS: There's like two of them, I think, and the worst one is the one that was gifted.
JJ: Yes. I think there was actually three, if I'm not mistaken.
LS: It's a lot lesser of evils thing, to be honest. None of them are good. I was banged up.
JJ: That was my first time meeting you in person, but I have been following you for a while.
LS: Thank you.
JJ: I discovered your podcast during the pandemic. The first one I listened to was your interview with Rachel Tashjian.
LS: Oh, of course. The prophet.
JJ: The prophet.
LS: Herself.
JJ: Loved it. And then, I just found it very funny.
LS: Thank you. That's my goal is to be, I think, entertaining and funny, first and foremost. I don't always... Or we, I should say, don't always succeed. But when someone is, if anyone was like, this was so thoughtful, or informative, or funny, or imaginative, or funny, or entertaining, I'll take funny and entertaining all day versus anything even remotely construed as serious or whatever.
JJ: Why I thought what was so refreshing about you and James's take is that I think everyone, with fashion is taking, people take it so serious. It's like, it's stuffy, it's stuffy, it's stuffy, but it's like hilarious. But I think it's sometimes ridiculous about things I have stressed over where it's like, before my job at Saks I was in styling world and stressing over, we didn't get look 21. It didn't come. Where is it? Where is it? In reality, it's just a skirt. It's just…..
LS: Yeah, no one really gives a shit.
JJ: But it's funny. It's actually terribly funny. But because of I think the structure around it with the capital F, everyone thinks it very, also, there's money involved, so whenever there's money involved. So needless to say, when I found your podcast, I thought it was extremely funny, entertaining, and I think you all have amazing guests.
LS: We try. We book everyone ourselves. There's no booking agent. I don't know if people think that there is, but we just do it all organically. Sometimes with someone like Rachel, it's like a friend, someone we know. And if it's like a celeb, sometimes that stuff is inbound, they have someone to promote. But I don't know if people, I don't think the average person or even the average podcast listener probably thinks about the process of booking talent.
JJ: I did actually.
LS: But it is just, we just do it ourselves. We just had on the guy West [Wilson} from Summer House. I don't know if you're a Bravo watcher.
JJ: I am, to a point.
LS: Right. Well, that's my favorite show on Bravo. But that was the thing where I'm like, oh, this dude is following Throwing Fits. I'm just going to DM him and be like, would you want to come on the podcast? I don't think he knew that there would, I think he assumed he was following some meme account, which a lot of, which is fine. I'll take, beggars can't be chooses if that's how people want to follow on social or why they would follow social on content. Yeah, but anyway, it's not a fun part of the job, the logistical bookings that you have to do, at least at our cadence basically every week. With that said, we do do it all ourselves.
JJ: So what goes into finding a person to bring onto the podcast?
LS: I just think we like a mix. There's always a certain type of guest that over indexes and does really well in terms of true just numbers and downloads. And that is always someone that professionally, in some capacity works in men's wear. To use a political thing or political term that's like playing to the base. That is what majority of our listeners want. With that said, I personally, as someone who has to do this job for a living, and I think I can speak for James, even though I will say, let me just say this whole interview, I'm speaking for myself individually. I don't want to talk to that kind of guy every fucking time. I already talk to those people enough as it is. So for me, I like a mix. And I'm personally somebody who has a variety of interests. I'm not saying that that makes me smart, or esoteric, or anything.
I'm just like, I like men's fashion, I like music, I love film. And if I can have an opportunity at television, whatever. I would not say the arts, and I'm not going to lie to your listeners. But for me, I just would like to talk to a variety of different people and again, hopefully have some type of entertaining conversation. Obviously some pods are better than others, but I usually... If I'm agreeing to a booking, it's like, okay, do I think this person is someone who I would like to talk to? That's really that simple. Which I think is a pretty foundational bar for the art of podcasting. But yeah, for me it's like, I like to joke and I'll talk to anybody. That's not true, there's certain people that we turn down. The one thing I'll say about booking that's always funny is that usually if somebody is pitching themselves, that's when you know they're not going to be good.
JJ: Oh, that's terrible.
LS: Yeah. Terrible is extreme, because sometimes. But if someone is pitching themselves, yikes.
…………………………………………
JJ: Anyway, so another thing, doing a pivot, so I was going through and doing my little research and reading articles about you. And you've had quite a lot of different paths.
LS: Sure.
JJ: And done a lot of different things. And so also you went to school originally for finance.
LS: I was a economics major at Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, North Carolina.
JJ: And you've had an interest in fashion, but I guess it is, what is it about fashion that drew so much to you? What is it about this vehicle...
LS: Well, it definitely changed, because the way I view it now, besides being my livelihood, and a hobby, and something that I have in common with so many of my closest friends. And it's something I choose to use to define myself as a person. But for better or for worse, I'm not going to lie I pretend that's not, I like to, and even now it's very much a part of my identity and self-expression. But honestly what got me into it back in the day was just via all the other interests that I had when I was younger, which have been a variety of things. Whether it was more traditional sports, like played soccer, I was a huge basketball fan growing up. So it's like I grew up during the era too of professional athletes like Shaq, and Alan Iverson, and Anthony Hardaway, and Tracy McGrady. Very cool guys now that I think are looked at as basically ushering in a new era of NBA players. Bringing personality, not just how they would normally play the game, but how they just kind of move, what we would call swag honestly in 2014.
So the kinda traditional stuff, I'm going to be long-winded here. And then as I got a little bit older and my taste kind of became less traditional. So I was super into punk music and in the tri state area where I grew up, there's a very.... group there was a very influential, what I would call a post punk scene with a bunch of bands, like Taking Back Sunday, or Brand New, and Thursday, and Glass Jaw. Anyway, so getting into music subcultures, music subculture, and then the subculture also of skateboarding. I was very bad at skateboarding myself. And I was in bands and I played bass guitar, but I had not a musical bone in my body. So the thing that I latched onto in terms of looking for acceptance and to understand these subcultures in these worlds better, so I could move through them, was like the uniforms and how people dress.
Uniforms may be the wrong word, because there's a lot of individuality in how people kind of play in the sandboxes of these subcultures. But I've talked about this before, but it's like you got to wear the right band tee, and you need to wear the right skate shoes, and you need to skate the right board from the right brand, and you need to buy by right sun belt and things like that. And that's when I started thinking a lot about how clothes can be used as kind of like foundational elements of a subculture that could be built upon then, and then your taste could be refined. But you got to look the part. And I guess you could basically say that I was a poser, but you're only a poser until you're not. Right? I think to some degree. So anyway, for me it was this search for authenticity within these worlds where I wanted to be accepted.
JJ: Yes.
LS: And a lot of that for me just started with how you kind of look, the first impression.
JJ: Which is interesting too, in the sense of bringing up subcultures. I think that fashion is suffering right now, because there's an absence...
LS: There's none.
JJ: There's no subculture.
LS: It's just about, dude, you could not be more correct. That is literally, we are in a dearth of, it's just about consumption.
JJ: Yes.
LS: See that's the thing, right? In skateboarding, it wasn't just about the shoes and the board, it's like what can you do on the board while wearing the shoes? And in any type of music subculture, it's not just about the T-shirt, but it's like how do you critically appreciate, or digest, dissect whatever the actual music that is being produced. And I'm not one of these, oh, nice shirt name three bands type guys. I don't give a fuck about that. But unfortunately in fashion and even really in men's wear, it's just like the hobby can't be the act of making a purchase.
JJ: Yes.
LS: Right?
JJ: It's about the learning, it's about the cultivating, it's about the taste making.
LS: Well and it's like, I mean, I guess there's part of me that's also like, well, can the subculture itself be men's wear? Because you could be nerdy about men's wear, and you can learn a lot about men's wear, and you can get into all the guy type under the hood shit. Where it's like, how is the suit made and how are the shoes cobbled? And let's throw watches in the mix and then it gets really complicated. So it's like I get this idea of...
JJ: You're saying that men's wear can be a subculture.
LS: I feel like it kind of is or can be, but at the same time, that's not what's happening with a lot of... Again, when you say fashion, you are right to make that blanket statement. I absolutely agree with what you're saying. But I'm just even saying, well, I do follow and care about the fashion industry, not just because I'd like to think that I'm a participant and because I just find it interesting. I'm mainly talking about men's wear from my lived experience and what I do for a living. And what I've done for almost probably 15 years. But yeah...
JJ: With that too. So bring back to an earlier point, we were talking and I was telling you about how I was leaving my job. And how part of the reason I was leaving is because I've learned a lot at Saks, but I wasn't feeling like I was getting what I wanted to get out of it, not to get out, but I wasn't even used in a sense. And I was like, why are they not using me? I'm so invested in this industry, in this thing. What's going on? And you kind of shared similar sense.
LS: Oh, yeah.
JJ: Even though we both said, there's still appreciation and love for...
LS: Oh, of course.
JJ: So what do you think is next? What do you think can help, where do we go from here? Where are we? Where do we go?
LS: I think we need more. I think people who are becoming fans of fashion, they're discovering it in a variety of different ways. Unfortunately, not unfortunately, I don't want to say that. The main way though is via thought leaders that continue down this train of thought, no pun intended, do not have a single thought in their head. So it's like if you are, it's funny because influencer culture that I remember fashion blogging, which is something that I did. I was writing more, my background was mainly media kind of adjacent when I came into the industry. I guess it kind of still is now. Podcasting is media to some degree.
But I remember that I used to look down as a snob, who had no reason to be a snob because I was no one with no pedigree, just a dream. That was sarcastic, but it was true. But there was these guys, people doing outfit stuff and they were called fashion bloggers. And I remember being like, it's like, okay, well you just wear clothes. Okay, maybe... You know about that stuff. But I'm like, there's no value being added here. I was writing about stuff, I was reviewing product or trying to have a critical lens about what was happening in menswear at the time. And it felt like we had moved away from that. And mainly, because a lot of that stuff transitioned in a different way to Instagram. But I kind of feel like now with what's happening on TikTok, I'm not going to just be the old man yells out cloud, but it's just like, I don't know.
The content that I think new fashion fans are seeing to me is not, and I don't want to just say that there's no thought-provoking content on that app, because there are great people that use that. But for me to be extremely long-winded and wrap this back, what you're saying is what we need is more people like you who are willing to put themselves out there and be a thought leader in critical and interesting, thoughtful ways that are based still in a sincere enthusiasm for getting dressed, personal style, and shopping. We love that. Yeah. I just think that, I don't know, a lot of it, lot of... Sorry. The funnel and portal to which people are discovering this stuff, whether it's any type of genderless fashion, whether it's men's wear, whether its women wear, whatever, it just feels so soulless and based around consumption, conspicuous or not. Because obviously quiet luxury was this huge fake, terrible trend that we seemingly just finally moved past, because also let's be real trends now lasts. I
JJ: I don't think trends exist.
LS: They're so, well, you're not wrong. Because can a trend be trend if it's a trend for one day? I don't know. Chicken before the egg bro.
………………………….
JJ: C'est la vie. So, to wrap up this...
LS: Oh, yeah. We've been all over the place. This was fun. That's why I was like, yeah, I'm going to come in. I'm not going to prepare nothing. It's going to be fun. We always have a good time. I'm like, I'm going to be a little chaotic.
JJ: I love this. I love chaos.
LS: What a better way to spend a Friday evening, not evening, late afternoon.
JJ: Yeah, I was very excited to do this.
LS: I was excited to be asked. I think I told you I was at Stoffa. I wouldn't expect that you would want me to... Well, I did owe you a favor, because I fucked you over.
JJ: Yeah. It's fine. But why do you think I wouldn't ask you?
LS: I don't know. I just feel like, maybe this is my imposter syndrome, but I'm like, dude, when I think of the kind of people that already fucking pay to hear me drone on and on and say dumb shit that he thinks is funny, or controversial, or put his foot in his mouth, that is typically a straight white man between the ages of 18 and 35. And I'm just flattered that someone of your taste level and your pedigree would want to have me tap in with, what we do call this?
JJ: So this is...
LS: Jalil Eats.
JJ: It's called Lunch Break.
LS: Lunch Break, with Jalil?
JJ: So it's called Lunch Break, a Supplement by Consider Yourself Cultured by Jalil.
LS: Whoa, you need an editor. Oh, you know what I wanted to mention before we wrap up?
JJ: Yes. This is, yes.
LS: I want to say this and maybe you'll cut this out. I don't know. This is actually going to be very complimentary, but I don't know if it might offend some people's feelings. Hurt some people's feelings and offend some people. My perception, so when you told me that you were leaving Saks, I wasn't surprised at all. Because here is the fucking problem, and this is coming from someone who, I never worked in, what would the term would you say? It's not retail, obviously, but you were...
JJ: It's still like retail, yeah.
LS: I don't want, because sometimes you say, when people are like, "Oh yeah, I work in retail." It's like, you're a shop boy. That's not what I'm implying, obviously I know you... But as someone who kind of experienced this in his own way, my own way in media. What I always perceived about you, and this is totally sincere, when you told me you left your job, I was like, I'm not surprised. There definitely was people that you worked with that Saks where like, this guy is not only just his own brand, but could be bigger than the brand. And when you see that happening, there's two ways to do this. One is you're smart and you're not a dummy, and you harness that power. And honestly, a lot of times I see it happen to a lot of our friends, they get gassed up by the employer where it's like new title fancy business card, but it's like, nah. No fucker, you got to pay for that. But it's not a two-way street. But either way, they're still smart enough to try to harness and exploit it, like any corporation, right? They're evil.
JJ: Right.
LS: Inherently. So I'm like, they didn't even think to fucking exploit this guy in the right way.
JJ: No.
LS: So guess what? Fuck off. Let me do my own thing. And that's why I told you I'm happy for you, I'm proud of you. Because I'm like, this dude is a star and doesn't need Saks, bro. Saks needs you. I'm being serious. But anyway, so when you're like, "I quit." I'm like, oh fucking, maybe there is a God. Jesus Christ.
JJ: No, it was definitely hard to do, because I also don't come from, so I don't come from family money. So I'm like doing is all on my own.
LS: Good.
JJ: So I felt like I had to stay at Saks because of the money.
LS: Was it also a dream of your be in the industry?
JJ: Yeah.
LS: That was always for me. I was like, oh my God. Dude, I interviewed a GQ like four times, dude.
JJ: I always want...
LS: I wanted to be....
JJ: I wanted to work at, I wanted work at….a magazine. I wanted to be in it. That was also before, coming from Virginia, I also didn't know how terrible the pay is.
LS: How old are you, if you don't mind me asking? I know you're never supposed to ask a lady their age, but...
JJ: No, it's fine. I tried at one point to hide my age...
LS: Oh wait, really?
JJ: Yes.
LS: You're that self-conscious.
JJ: No.
LS: Or you were, sorry that's a presumptuous...
JJ: No, I was trying...
LS: You don't have to say if you don't want to though. I was just trying to...
JJ: I will say I'm turning 25.
LS: Oh my, fucking baby. Wait, you were hiding it, because you thought people would think you were a child.
JJ: No, people already think I, no matter, even no matter if I told them I age or not, they assumed that I was, actually...
LS: They assumed you were young.
JJ: They assumed...
LS: Black don't crack.
JJ: Black doesn't crack. I've had people say like, "Oh, you're 30." And I'm like...
LS: Fuck off.
JJ: But no, I was trying to hide it, because I thought it'd be like fun mystery, like open the Wikipedia age.
LS: You just presume you're going to have a Wikipedia page. Honestly, you might dude.
JJ: I feel like everyone has, not everyone...
LS: What are you are you talking about? No way, dude. That's the greatest, to have, the Wikipedia page is the moment.
JJ: Yes. So I'm speaking, I'm manifesting...
LS: If anyone would like to make me a Wikipedia page or Jalil, just please do it. We would love that.
JJ: Please. Please.
LS: But can't make your own, that's embarrassing.
JJ: No, no, no. I couldn't do it. But my favorite thing is when I go to Wikipedia page and they have a question mark around...
LS: Oh, the...
JJ: And I'm like...
LS: The year he was born.
JJ: That's kind of gorge, that kind of fash.
LS: That's cool. I get what you're saying. It's very mysterious.
JJ: Yes.
LS: Because that's the most foundational piece of information about anyone, is how old they are.
JJ: Yes. But I also like a person that, I talk a lot, so nothing's a secret. Oh, things are secret. But I am very open.
LS: That's good.
JJ: Maybe to...
LS: A fault. Same bro. But I do think that transparency, I define it as transparency, I think is a admirable trait. And of course there are over-sharers. I mean, listen, we've all been there.
JJ: Yes.
LS: But no, what I will say is that what is funny to me is that that illusion of needing, so this is actually one positive of where fashion having blown up. Is a positive I think side effect is that, you don't need the institutions, even if they are benevolent and not evil, because we've been shitting a lot on whatever, whether it's magazines, or retailers, or the old guard, whatever, ivory tower, whatever you want to say. There's this illusion, and I think that's also the appeal for a lot of people of different generations. You're 25, I'm 37. But for me it was like I have to, oh my God, could I one day work at a GQ? And I worked at magazines and I worked at, actually I did work at Gilt, so I worked at a retail... That's when flash sales were all rage.
JJ: Saks bought Gilt. Were you there when Saks bought it?
LS: Was I there? I was there when we launched Park & Bond. We launched a Mr. Porter full price competitor, because we had a men's wear dream. I worked with Nick Wooster, Josh Peskowitz, Chris Wallace, Tyler Thoreson, Jonathan Evans. It was a true, and I'm sorry if I'm missing anyone... I might have a double espresso.
Restaurant Staff: Double espresso. And for you?
JJ: Actually I'll do the same.
LS: Oh, and then one thing that is sacrilegious... Can I have a side of, do you guys have skim milk?
Restaurant Staff: Yes.
LS: Can I get a side of skim milk?
Restaurant Staff: Cold milk or?
LS: Please. Thank you. Yeah, I drink my espresso like a fucking monster where I just like to top it off with some cold milk.
JJ: I feel like at the very...
LS: But I don't want to order any type of, I mean, I drink iced coffee for the most part, regardless of the season.
JJ: Really.
LS: In Italy, I won't do that, because it's like... You know all the rules about coffee in Italy too, right?
JJ: Yeah. They would like...
LS: Well, it's like at a certain time of day, if you order a macchiato, you only get that before noon or whatever. And then anything after that, it's an espresso. It's like all the rules. And you don't want to look like an ugly American anyway.
JJ: Yes.
LS: But I digress. My thing that I love is that in this day and age, one thing that people like me and you can do, even though again we are two different generations, I'm going to geriatric millennial year a Gen Z, right?
JJ: Yes. But I don't feel like a... And that's beside the point.
LS: Right, right. Old soul, as we said.
JJ: Yes, yes, yes.
LS: You can make your own way and you do not need the endorsement, resources, co-sign, whatever from these institutions that for the most part I do think are in the business of exploitation and abuse of their very hardworking, devoted, and loyal employees. Whether it's retail, media, and this is in fucking any industry, forget about just fashion. But fashion, I think, where personalities are...
JJ: Well, that's what makes fashion. Fashion is partially all about the personalities. You don't remember a designer that didn't have a person...
LS: I don't know, man. I mean, there's a lot of, well no, I think I would disagree, because I think that some designers use the cult of personality to over compensate for a lack of talent.
JJ: Got it.
LS: And then there are people, I just recently, when Dries retired, I re-watched Dries documentary, and I mean talk about cerebral fucking genius. Or like Raf the same way, where it's like, and these guys, they all give great quotes, and great interviews, and are very insightful, when you can pin them down and get a quote. But those aren't your Karl Lagerfelds, right? Those aren't your John Gallianos or whoever. And then there are people like Lagerfeld and Galliano just use, again where it's like they're, the talent and the personality are also, people are just different, right?
JJ: Yes.
LS: But anyway, to bring it back to you.
JJ: Yes.
LS: Just to give you your flowers before we wrap up.
JJ: Thank you.
LS: Is that obviously, I just think you made the fucking smartest decision at the right time. Not that I wish I could go back in time, because everything I've done has led up to me having a career where I'm self employed and I can do something that is not only just rewarding, but honestly financially successful with a friend of mine, on our own terms. I'm so grateful for that, so I wouldn't change the journey. But if I could go back in time and when shit was not enjoyable for me at a bunch of different stages throughout my career, despite amazing stuff that I've done. I am a published author. Thank you so much. I would've told myself where it's like, you don't need these people. Believe in yourself. And I love that you figured it out, at least probably closer to a decade than not, than it took in terms of where I was in my life when I figured that out. Head to the curb, I guess what I'm trying to say.
JJ: Thank you.
LS: No, you're welcome. That's sincere too. I know I've been joking around a lot, that's sincere.
JJ: No, I...
LS: Totally came off that way.
JJ: No, it did not come off... No, I really...
LS: It didn't come off as sincere?
JJ: It came off as sincere. Yes, yes, yes.
LS: It didn't come off as toty, or suck uppy, or ass kissy.
JJ: No, no, no. No. I really appreciate that and it gives me, because I know I'm in my head, I'm just like, this feels like the right thing, but I'm scared.
LS: I need to give you some of my confidence, which is delusional levels of confidence. If I could take a little bit and fucking somehow give you an infusion.
JJ: Give me more delusion. I don't know if I need more delusion.
LS: Delusions of grandeur are good sometimes.
JJ: I don't know, because my delusion is basically shopping.
LS: Well, that's a financial addiction. That's a ….. even wealthy. Anyway.
JJ: Okay. So basically to officially wrap it up, I have three questions.
LS: Okay, let's go.
JJ: So the first question is, who is the most cultured person you know?
LS: The most cultured person I know.
JJ: Yes.
LS: Man, how do we even define culture?
JJ: This is a beautiful thing. I think culture can take on whatever definition you...
LS: The smartest person I know is my father. And I think that... Yeah, I'll say my dad. And that's not because he's the cool dad that put me on to cool stuff, but he's just so smart, and knowledgeable, and I go to him for a ton of life advice. And I had wonderful parents that I think raised me right. I was just having a conversation about this where I meet a lot of people, and this is definitely judgy, I'm not going to say it's not, but I'm like, I can tell if someone was raised right or raised wrong, not wrong. I'll go with my dad. Anyway, my thing is that the people, I still have to say, again to be self-deprecating, I people meet me are like, this guy's a psychopath. My parents are the most loving, wonderful, amazing people. Also, my mom, but my dad is very smart. And I think he is cultured, he knows a lot about...
LS: Oh, wow. Thank you so much.
JJ: Thank you.
LS: So when you say cultured, yeah, I mean I have so many cool friends that put me on to so much cool shit. I've had so many amazing mentors in my life, specifically in fashion, specifically in men's fashion. I could do a whole podcast about the people that have shaped me along my professional journey. But fuck all of them, shout out my dad. He's a smart mother fucker.
JJ: Fantastic. Okay. What is your latest cultural obsession?
LS: Ooh, my latest cultural obsession. Could it be...
JJ: Whatever you want?
LS: I quit smoking only to become completely addicted to flavored nicotine pouches.
JJ: Fantastic.
LS: So ZYN is the main brand in America, which is owned by Philip Morris. So it's all still big tobacco, it's all still evil. But it was the biggest beef I had with my wife, which is that I have as a very serious smoker since, for my entire adult life. I always would quit, or fake quit, restart, quit again, whatever. And I'm just replacing one addiction with another. But I've become obsessed, because there is a whole stupid hilarious bro culture around these in terms of puns. The New York Post just ran a whole thing where it's like, they call it's $5, because you buy them at a gas station for like whatever, five bucks. Not in New York, their like $7.25. But they curb your appetite, like nicotine is an appetite depressant. So they were calling it Ozempic. Or they give you ZYNergy, because like you take in the morning with a coffee, you're fucking jacked up. Anyway, so I'm obsessed with ZYN, which is the last time that anyone mentions ZYN on the extremely cumbersome, long name of whatever this project is again. But yeah, I've been trying all the flavors.
JJ: What's your favorite flavor?
LS: Peppermint.
JJ: Oh, that's a very easy...
LS: But there's a shortage right now because they're so popular. Also, it's really bad, I think some legislation is going to be enacted sooner rather than later, if it hasn't already been put forth by politicians that would rather police people's bodies than actually do anything of real value. The issue with this I think, is that because of the memes and because of how culture, because this is culture, but corny. You said, I was allowed to talk about it.
JJ: You got to pick this journey.
LS: Because children on Instagram are seeing these memes, obviously with kids vaping in school, you can get caught vaping. You can literally be the teacher's pet like yourself and have one of these hidden in your mouth. And you could be like a 12-year-old kid hopped up on nicotine.
JJ: Yes.
LS: I'm obsessed with these things. Trying all the flavors.
JJ: Yeah.
LS: But it helped me quit smoking and my wife could not be happier. I don't think she loves that these are now part of my life. But if you had, she had to choose, she's taking these all day over darts.
JJ: Okay. Yeah, anyway.
LS: Yeah. Am I supposed to give a better, like cooler answer? I talked about all my prestige horror movies that I'm watching, that was culture.
JJ: Well, we're going to get into more prestige, hopefully.
LS: Okay.
JJ: So the last question is, what should everyone watch, listen to, and read to consider themselves culture?
LS: Okay, great. So what should they watch? So actually one of my favorite directors, and maybe the most underrated director of all time, is William Friedkin, who died recently. He is most famous for directing The Exorcist (1973).
JJ: Yeah.
LS: He also directed a great movie called Sorcerer (1977), which is maybe the most underrated, spectacular movie of all time. So everyone should watch... Oh, he also did The French Connection (1971) . How could I forget.
JJ: Really good.
LS: He's incredible. And To Live and Die in L.A. Honestly, he's my favorite and I think objectively underrated director. There's a movie called Sorcerer that came out in theaters when Star Wars was in theaters and nobody fucking saw this movie, because Star Wars became the cultural phenomenon that we all fucking know. Which is almost like become anti culture, because it's so fucking...
JJ: Because it's so popular.
LS: Not even that, it's just fucking dog shit now. Well, spinoffs and how Disney has commodified it. So anyway, everyone should watch Sorcerer. It's on Criterion Collection right now. Everyone should have, dude, that's the thing with all these streaming services, by the way which I'm a subscriber to all of them, the best, and most crucial, and most prestige, is the Criterion Collection.
JJ: I became a subscriber.
LS: Oh my God, thank you for your service.
JJ: I feel so, I was like, what was I doing in my life?
LS: There's part of me that's always afraid that something will happen in the Criterion Collection, or even the streaming service will go away, because people don't care about good film anymore. Because film has become junk food, thanks to Marvel. Not to be on my Scorsese shit. But Sorcerer, honestly, well, it's incredible. It's on Criterion. I don't know if everyone will like it, but it's impossible for me to pick a favorite movie or even favorite movies, because I love them so much. But that's the one that I always recommend, and I'll take any opportunity to recommend that. And I'm not going to pretend that I read. With that said, which is funny, because my wife is... So the way that my wife and I, we break down our alone time, time apart, is she's a voracious reader and I am a psychotic consumer of cinema. So that's when we spend our time apart.
It's great to have a big enough apartment where you don't have to be locked into one room together where like, turn the TV down I'm trying to read or whatever. Or hey, pay attention, anyway. Yeah, I have a nice apartment. I'm like, what am I talking about? But with that said, I have read some really fantastic books in my lifetime. Some of my favorites are, this is a brail answer, but I think Kurt Vonnegut is one of the greatest minds.
JJ: Which one?
LS: So my favorite's Cat's Cradle.
JJ: That one's good.
LS: Because everyone reads Slaughterhouse-Five, which is fantastic. In school, it's a social studies book. Shout out social studies again for the second time. I don't know, people are familiar with Breakfast of Champions. I don't know there's a lot of great Vonnegut. My favorite's Cat's Cradle. Another thing that you read in school, Beowulf. There is a fantastic retelling from the perspective of Grendel, called Grendel by, I believe it's John Gardner, I think is the writer. That's a fantastic book. It's beautiful. Snobby Answer Can Be by Voltaire is hilarious and the greatest satire of all time. In terms of what I'm actually reading right now, the director, Michael Mann, who wrote and directed the movie Heat. There's a sequel Heat 2, which they're turning into a movie, that is a book.
I'm reading that novel right now. I'm reading a movie basically. And then with Furiosa, the Mad Max prequel that's in theaters right now. The previous movie with Charlize Theron and Tom Hardy called Mad Max Free Road, which is amazing. There's a fantastic oral history about the making of that movie that is really good. So those are two books about movies that I, well, one I'm taking with me on vacation. Finishing Heat 2 now. And the others I mentioned are my favorites of all time that I'm not going to pretend like I've read any of those super recently, but those are the smart guy answers.
JJ: Okay, and what should everyone listen to?
LS: They should listen to Throwing Fits, which is a podcast I do with my friend James Harris. In terms of music, on the way over I was listening to The Clash.
JJ: Yeah.
LS: Clash were fantastic. Oh, a great underrated band is a band called T. Rex. They're British glam rock band. Mainly the project of a guy named Marc Bolan, who some people will say actually invented glam rock and Bowie ripped him off. He died in a car accident way too young. They basically only have one song that people know, which is Bang a Gong Get It On. You've heard of that? Banga a gong, get it on. Glam rock from the seventies, it's fantastic. The record is called Electric Warrior. It is awesome. There's a second record called The Slider, that's really good. Yeah, he's just underrated and he was like a big celebrity in England. They never really made it big in America at all, and he died way too young. But he was super influential, amazing fits. You would actually love, Marc with a c Bolan, you should look it up.
JJ: Okay.
LS: Incredible inspo in terms of the fucking hand painted psychedelic Rolls Royce to top hats, and neckerchiefs, and just crazy fucking suits, and just a God. Really to the point where the argument that he invented this genre, that obviously then Bowie took to a whole another fucking galaxy, no pun intended, child, Ziggy Stardust. I think that music is underrated and underappreciated, much like a lot of this stuff that I usually drop when I'm trying to sound like cool and actually give someone a wreck, that's not a very obvious thing.
JJ: Yeah.
LS: Yeah, and then the Clash. The tagline for Throwing Fits is the only podcast that matters. And to wrap it up, that was stolen from The Clash, because the clash were popular, and political, and radical, and extremely talented. And they called themselves the only band that mattered, because quite frankly, at the time, that was a true statement in terms of music with a message, maybe the best to ever do it. So yeah, listen to The Clash.
JJ: All right. Well, Lawrence, this was amazing. Thank you so much.
LS: Thank you.
JJ: This was fantastic.
LS: I had a great time, which is all... You had a good time?
JJ: I had a fantastic time.
LS: That's all that matters.
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